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heinz kling |
The better panzer division of the Wehrmacht? |
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Posts: 237 (11/03/02 20:18:08) |
What would be your choice and reasons for it?
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Volksturm |
The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 157 (11/03/02 21:27:35) |
Hi Heinz,
Of the choices given, "grossdeutchland" would be my selection. They were the so-called "firefighters of the East" because, time after time, they were thrown into the breech to halt a Soviet breakthrough. This had to be harrowing work! To be stuck in "do or die" situations on a regular basis would cripple any unit in a short period but G-D fought on and on and did what had to be done. Sure, they were a larger than normal unit, nearly a panzer army, but they had to be to just survive in the flood of the Russian assaults. I am amazed that the men of that unit were able to keep their morale together for as long as they did. Amazing! -Pat |
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heinz kling |
Re: The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 237 (11/04/02 00:02:08) |
My choice will also be the GD. I put the 7. Panzer-Division in because it had 2 Brillantentarger, Schulz and Maus. I always wonder what had they done to deserve it?
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rstkw |
Re: The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 455 (11/08/02 12:02:48) |
7th Panzer Division really distinguished itself during the French campaign. Maybe that is where the awards came from. Of course you have to keep in mind who the commander was.
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Ferdinand Porsche |
Re: The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 4958 (11/08/02 17:35:43) |
But, again - awards is not the deciding factor - but it's natural to chose it because it can be measured.
What is interresting is more how they were won - but also how the divisions fared in general. In theory, Britische Freikorps could have won an EK, in the late-war confusion, but I wouldn't count on them... Ferdinand Porsche |
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PantherD |
Re: The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 1014 (11/09/02 21:21:44) |
I too voted for GD. I think Volkssturm said it all in his post.
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Wolfkin |
Re: The best Panzer Division | ||
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Posts: 258 (11/13/02 01:14:30) |
Well, I voted for 7th Panzer Division, but for me it is a toss up between the 7th, 11th and 2nd Panzer Divisions. Not for what people may think. The 7th and 11th shined in Russia.
Both fought very well in Barbarossa, in the Chir-Donets area (11th in the Chir area, 7th in the Donets area) after the Russian Stalingrad offensive, the Kharkov counter-attack, Kursk, defensive battles after Kursk, Zhitomir area battles (the 7th), Kamenets-Podolsk Pocket battles and more. Mauss and Schultz won thier awards in Russia for leading their troops in successful engagements, long after Rommel left the division. I apologize to the many Grossdeutschland fans, but in my opinion, for a Division that was always very well equipped, with it's own Tiger Abteilung, Grossdeutschland performed very poorly compared to Divisions like the 7th, 11th and 2nd. These Divisions fought well despite being under-equipped at many times. Even the Waffen SS Panzer Divisions, who contrary to popular belief were not always equipped with the most equipment,(Leibstandarte had ONE Panzer Abteilung during Kursk) performed better with LESS equipment than Grossdeutschland. Look at the battles that Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking fought along the Mius, Bogodukhov and Kharkov in late July and August of 1943. Why the 2nd Panzer? (Heer not SS) They got the closest to the channel in May 1940. They performed well in Greece, they got the closest to Moscow in 1941, they got the furthest during the Mortain counter-attack in Normandy and they penetrated the furthest in the Ardennes. Cheers, Wolfkin |
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Hansvw |
best panzer division | ||
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Posts: 191 (11/13/02 02:14:58) |
I agree with the remarks about 2 Panzer division. It belonged to the very best. It was a very experienced division and famous for its ability to maintain. 116 panzer division (greyhound) is also worth mentioning. 21 Panzer division was famous for its fight in North africa. In 1943 the division was decimated in Tunisia and it surrended. In 1944 it was there once again on the battlefield in Normandy, but inexperienced. Its debut was not very lucky. AFter that 21 panzer division performed really well, but it had only Panzer IV's and STU's. No Panthers, nor Tigers.
Hansvw |
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heinz kling |
Re: best panzer division | ||
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Posts: 237 (11/13/02 17:28:44) |
What is surprising is that the best equipped Heer panzer divisions (GD and Panzerlehr) were not that outstanding in their combat performances, even though they were much better equipped than others, Waffen SS included.
Same goes for the HG division, which was never on par with the better Fallschirmjager divisions. |
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markvid |
Re: best panzer division | ||
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Posts: 61 (11/14/02 10:53:27) |
I still think that »GD« was probably the best Heer Panzer Division, having said that I'm still open for anykind of suggestion, which would convince me otherwise. For example could somebody tell me what was so special with the 2nd Panzer Division and how can you rate the 11th Panzer so high just because of one very successful operation.
7th Panzer - undoubtedly one of the finest Panzer Divisions (not because of France 1940). I think this intercepted Russian radio message from 1945 says it all: »Achtung, Mauss wieder da - äußerste Vorsicht geboten, der bringt alles fertig!« On the other hand, this division also lost half of its panzers on the first day of Operation Barbarossa. Panzer Lehr - creating this kind of a unit by OKW was definately a BIG MISTAKE and then sending it in jungle in bright daylight and finally employing it in a kind of a Stelungskrieg-madness. You also fogot to mention one very important fact: Waffen-SS divisions still had a three battalion panzergrenadier regiment and it was common for a Tiger battalion to be assigned to SS-Pz.Divisions. |
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markvid |
Re: best panzer division | ||
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Posts: 61 (11/14/02 11:06:41) |
Consider also some other divisions: 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th.
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Abwehr |
huh? | ||
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Posts: 43 (11/14/02 15:35:27) |
It was not common for a Tiger battalion to be attached to a W-SS division...LSSAH, DR, and SSTK each had Tiger companies at various times, and SS s.PzAbt's often operated nearby, but as far as I can recall, there was never a Tiger battalion in a division ala GD.
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heinz kling |
How would you rate the 2 Fuhrer divisions? | ||
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Posts: 237 (11/14/02 21:46:09) |
Though they were divisions in name only, FGD and FBD were quite well equipped and staffed with highly decorated GD veterans.
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heinz kling |
Was 11. Panzer-division Dr. Bake's baby? | ||
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Posts: 237 (11/14/02 21:48:41) |
Franz Bake apparently deserves more recognition, as he was quite a good field panzer officer.
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markvid |
Re: Huh??? | ||
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Posts: 61 (11/15/02 09:35:54) |
All three Waffen-SS Tiger battalions were essentially Corps units but this doesn't mean they were always directly subordinated to them. Infact:
101st (501st) was for the most of the time in Normandy subordinated to the HJ and in the Ardennes and Hungary to LSSAH, 102nd (502nd) was in Normandy first subordinated to Frundsberg and then to Hohenstaufen, 103rd (503rd) was actually officially integrated into SS-Pz.Rgt.11 (like »GD«) and a reason for this is because Steiner didn't want Kausch to leave his command so he ordered the creation of SS-Pz.Rgt.11 (Kausch was then its commander) by attaching the 503rd to the SS-Pz.Abt.11. |
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markvid |
How would you rate the 2 Fuhrer divisions | ||
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Posts: 61 (11/15/02 12:38:15) |
I guess they were both created to late to achieve any significant success. If I remember FBB performed quite awfully early in the Ardennes campaign (thanks to Remer) and also later as a division at Spremberg. On the other hand FGD participated in the battle of Vienna, also without much success, though it did cover the II.SS-Pz.Korps's retreat.
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markvid |
Re: How would you rate the 2 Fuhrer divisions | ||
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Posts: 61 (11/15/02 12:39:22) |
I don't remeber him being a member of the 11th Panzer Division during anytime in his career but he did command the 11th Panzer Regiment (6th Panzer Division). Plus I also think he received quite enough recognition (Panzer Aces I).
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heinz kling |
Franz Bake | ||
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Posts: 237 (11/15/02 22:02:35) |
This an article from achtungpanzer.com on Bake.
Dr.Franz Bäke (February 28, 1898 - December 12, 197 Colonel Dr.Franz Bäke, who was a dentist, is the one of the most successful and highly decorated tank commanders of World War II. Dr.Bäke was born in Schwarzenfels on February 28th of 1898. On May 19th of 1915, Franz Bäke volunteered for Infantry Regiment Nr.3 and then became Vizefeldwebel (Lance-Corporal) and Cadet in Foot Artillery Regiment Nr.7.In January 1919, Bäke retired and began studying medicine and dentistry until 1922 and in 1923, became Doctor of Dentistry.On April 1st of 1937, Dr.Franz Bäke had his first reserve manoeuver with Aufkärungs-Abteilung 6 (reconnaissance battalion), followed by second reserve manoeuver on June 11th of 1937. On December 1st of 1937, Bäke became a Lieutenant in reserve and on August 1st of 1939, Zugführer (Platoon Leader) in the leichte Kolonne of Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 65 (anti-tank battalion).On November 1st of 1939, Bäke was promoted to the rank of Oberleutnant and on January 1st of 1940, became company commander of Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 65. On May 1st of 1940, Bäke was promoted to the rank of Hauptmann (Captain) and during the French Campaign of 1940, Dr.Bäke served with 6th Panzer Division's 65th Panzerabteilung. He commanded company of the 65th Panzerabteilung and captured an undamaged bridge over the Meuse at Arques.While fighting in France, Bäke was wounded twice, on May 17th and 19th of 1940, but stayed with his unit. On May 1st of 1941, Captain Bäke became the leader of the Panzerstaffel of 6th Panzer Division's Panzer Regiment 11 and August 1st of 1941, he was promoted to the rank of Major.On November 1st of 1941, staff adjudant of the same unit. On July 1st of 1942, Dr.Franz Bäke became the commander of the 2nd Abteilung (Battalion) of Panzer Regiment 11.On January 11th of 1943, Major Bäke was awarded Knights Cross (Ritterkreuz). On July 13th of 1943, Bäke was wounded but stayed with his unit. On July 14th of 1943, according to the special order Dr.Bäke was to lead the Panzer Regiment 11, eventhough he was too young for the position but best suited. The position was interim although if performed well there would be a promotion out of line for him. On August 1st of 1943, Bäke was awarded Oakleaves to the Knights Cross (Eichenlaub). On November 1st of 1943, Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel) Bäke became the commander of Panzer Regiment 11 in the 6th Panzer Division. In early 1944, Bäke received command of special unit made up of elements of sPzAbt.503, battalion of Panthers along with some Sturmartillerie and engineer unit. This unit was then named Panzer-Regiment Bäke and took part in number of desperate actions on the Eastern Front. One of those actions was five-day battle in January of 1944 at the "Balabonowka Pocket", where Panzer-Regiment Bäke was credit with destruction of 267 Soviet tanks, while losing one Tiger and four Panthers. Bäke's personal heroism was outstanding and well represented by his four "Individual Tank Destruction Badges", awarded for the single-handed destruction of four enemy tanks. On February 21st of 1944, Lieutenant-Colonel Bäke was awarded Swords to the Knights Cross (Schwerter). On May 1st of 1944, Dr.Bäke was promoted to the rank of Oberst (Colonel) and July 13th, he became the commander of Panzer Brigade 106 - Feldherrnhalle.On January 1st of 1945, Dr.Bäke changed to active duty from reserve and became career soldier. He did so since otherwise he would not be able to be promoted higher than Colonel (Oberst). On January 24th of 1945, Colonel Bäke took training course for division commander.On March 9th of 1945, according to the special order Dr.Bäke was to lead the 13th Panzer Division "Feldherrnhalle 2", eventhough he was too young for the position but best suited. The position was interim although if performed well there would be a promotion out of line for him. From April 20th of 1945 until the end of the war, Colonel Dr.Bäke acting as General-Major commanded understrength 13th Panzer Division "Feldherrnhalle 2". On May 8th of 1945, Dr.Bäke became prisoner of war and remained in captivity until his release in 1947. He died in an accident in Hagen on December 12th of 1978. |
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Wolfkin |
Hey Markvid! | ||
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Posts: 258 (11/26/02 20:12:03) |
You are very correct, Bake commanded the 11th Panzer Regiment, not the 11th Panzer Division. Balck commanded the 11th Panzer Division for a spell, perhaps Heinz is confusing the similar names.
Cheers dude! P.S. Leibstandarte and Das Reich are BOTH the best! Heehee...I re-read some of our older posts...heehee!!! |
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Aufklarung |
The better panzer division of the Wehrmacht? | ||
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Posts: 3 (12/09/02 10:11:54) |
I chose Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland. It performed in an outstanding manner and was used as a fire-brigade all over the eastern front. But the same can be said of many of the other Panzer Divisions.
In fact, it is difficult to say which of the Panzer Divisions was the best. Most performed very well throughout the war, but they were at their best when properly equipped. If Panzer Lehr had been employed on the eastern front instead of in the Normandy bocage, where it was also subjected to naval gunfire and was almost annihilated by carpet bombing, it would probably have been able to show what it could do. |
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smithy13 |
Re: The better panzer division of the Wehrmacht? | ||
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Posts: 84 (03/16/03 12:32:10) |
I think the GD, for the same reasons as Aufklarung.Well said Aufklarung.
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